Firing Squad Image Quality Comparison. Red vs. Green.

[Keysplayr]

Addresses a lot of the BS being spread around about Image quality differences.
Thread here at AT http://forums.anandtech.com/messagev...&enterthread=y

[Rollo]

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/...down_august06/

This is a good article Keys. People fight over this topic like their family's lives were on the line, and this article does a good job examining the issue.

[Keysplayr]

A lot of repeat offenders actually fell silent, or had little to say about firing squad exposing through magnification, that ATI does not render 100% of the scene. This is something I have suspected for a long while. When raising IQ settings, NV cards take more of a hit than ATI cards. Well apparently there is a good reason for it. Nvidia cards render everything and apply the increased IQ to everything. ATI, most likely through driver "enhancements" do not render the little details that go unnoticed until some entity like FS does the digging. A lot of small scale blurring, like the mortar between bricks for example.

[Darth Shaidar]

If you *really* want to play this game I could point you in this direction:
http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/articl...50aHVzaWFzdA==

NV offers higher AA quality (however sacrifices performance to do so)
ATI offers better AF quality

Take your pick. I used to think AF was more important, but I'm now leaning towards AA, one of the biggest motivating factors in my recent contemplation of a switch to Quad SLI :p

I know both companies are going to improve these aforementioned "weak areas" with their first DX10 hardware (G80 & R600), so we'll all get some nice eye candy Christmas presents from our favorite GPU IHVs this year

[Darth Shaidar]

Let's just keep this civil guys. Not saying anyone is trying to start a flame war, I just want to head things off before they go down that road.

If I can curtail my fanATIcal ways to have a civil discussion about IQ then surely you all can.

[Rollo]

Let's just keep this civil guys. Not saying anyone is trying to start a flame war, I just want to head things off before they go down that road.

If I can curtail my fanATIcal ways to have a civil discussion about IQ then surely you all can.

It's ON Darth!
How dare you say ATi has decent IQ?!!?

;)

Good to see you dude- and good posts.

[Keysplayr]

Basically, both companies have fine quality. Weak points and strong points for both. Just got a little tired of hearing how much better ATI IQ was over NVida.
This article shows that both have nearly the same with few advantages/disadvantages over the other. I like when articles get into detail like this. FS said they may have a part II to the article where they mess around with the control panels and all the "candy" options. Looking forward to it.

[Darth Shaidar]

Basically, both companies have fine quality. Weak points and strong points for both. Just got a little tired of hearing how much better ATI IQ was over NVida.
This article shows that both have nearly the same with few advantages/disadvantages over the other. I like when articles get into detail like this. FS said they may have a part II to the article where they mess around with the control panels and all the "candy" options. Looking forward to it.

Agreed. Image quality, unlike performance, is subjective. Some people prefer NV's IQ, some prefer ATI's. I've gamed extensively on hardware from both companies, and still prefer ATI's IQ but definitely wish they offered TSAA.

[solofly]

Rollo,
Just wanna say good to see you're alive dude. Sorry to take this off topic, over and out,

[Rollo]

Rollo,
Just wanna say good to see you're alive dude. Sorry to take this off topic, over and out,

Thanks for the well wishes Solofly! I also moderate at nVidia's forums, as Brian_S. (some guy had used my "Rollo" name) I'm usually on the Quad SLi and SLi forums there, and at Rage3d. I also post at nVNews and FS from time to time.

We know for sure there are two places on the web Ackmed and crew can't lobby to get me banned- here and nZone. LOL

[solofly]

I admire your patience dude and keep up the good work.

[Rollo]

I admire your patience dude and keep up the good work.

Heh- I do tech support and training for a living. I have to be Ghandi. ;)

[Darth Shaidar]

Rollo - I do on-site hardware replacement for Dell. I don't have a tenth the patience you do when I get off the job. On the job is a different story though.

[Rollo]

Heh- I did a 3-4 month stint at a box shop Darth- can imagine what you're going through.

I remember one guy demanding I write down his first gen AIW card on his intake ticket, because he "didn't want the pc coming back without his $300 gaming card in there!".

This was in the era of Voodoo2s, and his card was basically worthless. I didn't have the heart to tell him we all had better stuff than his, and the card he prized so highly was a joke that no one would even want, let alone steal.

[Darth Shaidar]

My job is actually very easy, and rather stress-free. The toughest, most stressful thing I have to deal with is driving up to 1000 miles per week and sometimes not being able to locate a client's site by following mapquest/google maps directions.

I don't think I've had a bad encounter with a customer yet. Even the ones that are pissed at Dell and think they can take it out on me have all been easy to "diffuse" by simply talking to them about their problem and sympathizing with them. It never was that easy as a shop tech though. I used to get asshole customers all the time that thought because they were paying for the service they had the right to abuse me as they saw fit. The customers I deal with now are getting on-site service as part of their warranty, and thus are much happier to see me, especially when I give them my signature excellent service

[Rampage]

I noticed few ATI fans around the web owning up to the Truth that exists in this FS article.

Basically when it comes down to it, ATI and NV IQ are equal. Its true NV renders a bit more, its true ATI has slightly better AF. Yet NV generally has better AA.

Honestly, if ANYONE has better IQ.. its Nvidia overall due to ATI cheating on rendering the entire scene all the time. Thats the real truth about it.
You can tell here-

"The image quality comparison is almost certainly a draw on all but one account. NVIDIA’s AA routine, especially with Transparency AA activated, is better at drawing very fine lines, like those in the Half-Life 2 fence screenshot. Whether it’s the thin left side of the fence or the small branches on the trees, NVIDIA shows you more, and even more importantly, what they show is in sharper contrast than what ATI’s routines deliver. However, ATI generally has better AA smoothing once you bump things up to 6xAA. I’m going to call it a wash here."

UH HUH.. sure firingsquad.. nice try. But I caught this when I first read the article.

I'm going to call it a wash here hah! Pander to ATI much? Take note that FS is filled with canucks and I wonder how big of cahones it took to not lie completely and say ATI has superior IQ? They couldnt do that and blatantly lie. The best ATI is going to get, and this is only by fudging on the facts of the matter.. is a tie. They are extremely lucky to get that considering their partial rendering cheats.
For one, going beyond 4X AA and not using magnification the AA level increases beyond that are pointless in a game that has moving scenes at all. Its very, very minute. From 0X to 2X to 4X there are noticable differences.. but 6X? Wrong, FS.

http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/...orpc-05q2.html

But I'd like to note that the quality difference in modes higher than MSAA 4x goes down to zero, especially in dynamic games. While 8xS mode in GeForce cards still makes some sense (texture antialiasing and "side-effect" anisotropic filtering), you will have to use a magnifying glass to find differences between 6x and 4x modes in ATI cards. That's why it's hard to say whether all these crazy modes (like ATI CF 14x or NV SLI 16x) make any sense...

Anything above 4x is pointless. But 8xS does have a slight advantage, but only Nvidia has 8xS so that makes the IQ advantage for NV users who use that.. even more superior to ATIs available IQ options.. they can use Missfire and increase the AA to 16 or 32X for all I care.. but its pointless and digit-life.. and everyones eyes agree. 4X is where you get the most gain, 8XS is also useful.

It would be gracious, kind, and benevolent to ATI and its rabid fanboy base and allow for a "tie" since while ATI has a miniscule advantage in AF, the superior AA modes, finer detail / full-screen image processing that Nvidia does give it the rightful claim to the IQ throne.

Even higher "default settings" cant help ATI.. thats all nice and dandy, but they need to start applying their quality options to the whole scene, not selectively. No wonder they beat out Nvidia when both are set at high quality settings in FPS charts.. their high quality is partial precision!

I had another source that proved that ATI was not applying their AA and/or AF to the whole scene, but I seem to have misplaced the link.

ATI supporters hardest core supporters are a bunch of dumb canadians, and FS is their lapdog that wrote them a gracious gift with this article allowing for this tie without justification. Just read the verbage, "I'm going to call this one a wash"... OK? So instead of analyzing the issue just write it off as a tie.
A win for ATI through dumb luck.

[Rollo]

Errrr...blame Canada?
;)

ATI's AF is currently better than nVIDIAs. It's not really noticeable in most games with both at HQ, but it's visible in some. As you say, nVIDIA offer better draw distance and more flexible modes of AF.

What I don't agree with is the downplay of the value of 8X and 16X AA modes- the difference is easily seen in side by side screen shots, or by flipping back and forth between modes, as seen here:
http://www.rage3d.com/reviews/video/.../index.php?p=4

(Very nice illustration, Ratchet! I use this a lot)

I also don't think Firing Squad has any "pro-ATI" agenda. They are one of my favorite review sites, and I use their benches more than anyone's. What they did with Quad SLi- showing 8XAA benches- when all the other sites were using the good old 4X8X and 4X16X benches from days of yore and much weaker hardware is a good example of how they went the extra mile and showed the only difference that mattered. (rather than scratching their head and saying "Me not got it- this quad stuff seem slower at 10X7 4X8X- why would anyone want dis junk?!?!?" like several websites)

IMO- it is as it has always been in the IQ dept., each brand has advantages, you factor them into the whole picture when choosing. No right or wrong answer.

IMHO

[Rampage]

First of all, that Ratchjet link is no good. It does not disprove that the IQ increase in dynamic gaming above 4X AA is significantly decreased. It is, and DigitLife backed me up with specific statements concurring with my thoughts. While Rage3D says no such thing, nor do they have fullmotion uncompressed antialiased video at 4X, as well as above to prove the point.
They offer AA grids, which show that higher AA levels are superior technically.. which everyone knew already.

But in reality, 4X is where you get the most visual bang for buck out of your GPU power. The only way to get any substantial increase above this in real world fullmotion gaming, is with 8xS which DigitLife commented on. And only Nvidia has this.

I also don't think Firing Squad has any "pro-ATI" agenda. They are one of my favorite review sites, and I use their benches more than anyone's. What they did

I'm sorry, while you are correct most of the time Sir Rollo, you're going down on this one.

Proof positive?
http://forums.anandtech.com/messagev...&enterthread=y

FS going with the Creig/Ackmed/5150 dogma of "HQ for Nvidia to equal ATI IQ". Which as you know, is total BS as they both have their pros and cons in the IQ department.

I believe its time to take the rose colored glasses off when viewing FS. As you are in agreement with Creig, Apoppin, Ackmed and 5150. Great review site!

IMO- it is as it has always been in the IQ dept., each brand has advantages, you factor them into the whole picture when choosing. No right or wrong answer.

The definite wrong answer is to run HQ on NV hardware and leave it off on ATI. ATI has their own optimizations, that is clear from their partial precision rendering (as I put it).

Wheres your messiah now?

[Darth Shaidar]

Color quality is subjective. I have yet to see a reviewer discuss this as anything more than just a passing phrase. ATi color quality, many feel, is superior to that which NV produces. I am in that camp, though don't hate NV IQ by any means. People that think NV IQ is significantly less than ATi's either don't know what they're talking about, or haven't played on a GF card since the FX days.

[Rollo]

First of all, that Ratchjet link is no good. It does not disprove that the IQ increase in dynamic gaming above 4X AA is significantly decreased. It is, and DigitLife backed me up with specific statements concurring with my thoughts. While Rage3D says no such thing, nor do they have fullmotion uncompressed antialiased video at 4X, as well as above to prove the point.
They offer AA grids, which show that higher AA levels are superior technically.. which everyone knew already.

But in reality, 4X is where you get the most visual bang for buck out of your GPU power. The only way to get any substantial increase above this in real world fullmotion gaming, is with 8xS which DigitLife commented on. And only Nvidia has this.

I'm sorry, while you are correct most of the time Sir Rollo, you're going down on this one.

Proof positive?
http://forums.anandtech.com/messagev...&enterthread=y

FS going with the Creig/Ackmed/5150 dogma of "HQ for Nvidia to equal ATI IQ". Which as you know, is total BS as they both have their pros and cons in the IQ department.

I believe its time to take the rose colored glasses off when viewing FS. As you are in agreement with Creig, Apoppin, Ackmed and 5150. Great review site!
The definite wrong answer is to run HQ on NV hardware and leave it off on ATI. ATI has their own optimizations, that is clear from their partial precision rendering (as I put it).

Wheres your messiah now?

First of all, NEVER link me to teh hated AT video forum, where the inmates run the asylum

LOL

I didn't say FS was perfect, I said I don't think they are biased toward one company or another. They went the extra yard and used Quad sli as nVidia recommends in that Quad follow up, which no ATI biased site would ever do. Quad is such a niche solution that it would have been easy for them to post a standard 4X16X review like other sites and put quad in a bad light.

Second 8X AA isn't about bang for buck, it's about best IQ. It does things 4X doesn't and more of what 4X does, by definition it's better use.

And you've known me waaayyyy long enough to know I agree with the crew you mentioned on very little, and that not many would cast me in the light of ATI biased!